DARWIN - 00:02
Hello everybody, this is Darwin and this is the latest episode of Scene Through Black Eyes. This episode is going to be very different from the previous episodes because as my listeners know, as you guys know, all of my episodes have been in the monologue style where I get on the mic and I just tell you about my previous travel experiences.
This is going to be different because this is the first time that I will have someone in studio, well actually I'm not in studio, I'm actually in Durban, South Africa and I will be interviewing somebody that I met quite a while back, a very good friend and we're going to be talking about my experience the very first time I had come to South Africa and she's going to tell her version or her side of the story of that first trip that I had in South Africa back in, we believe it was 1997, we're pretty sure it was 1997.
I'm pretty sure it was in the late 90s so without further ado, I will allow my guest to introduce herself.
ZOE - 01:21
My name is Zoe Debe from South Africa, KwaZulu -Natal, Durban Teben and Umlazi township particularly.
DARWIN - 01:32
Okay, so let's just get right into it and let me start with the fact that when I came to visit, I wanted to go to the university, the local university, which by the way, the name of the university.ZOE - 01:49
University of Kwa-Zulu Natal.
DARWIN - 01:53
and I had been doing my research and I saw that there was a city bus that would take you to the campus. You would collect this bus at a central location, sort of a bus depot, and I got myself turned around and I couldn't find my way to the bus depot.
So I saw a young lady walking towards me, I believe, and I asked her for directions to get to this bus depot, and instead of just giving me the directions, she actually walked with me to the location, telling me which bus I needed to catch.
And in walking there, we talked, I asked a few questions, got some information from her, and exchanged contact information. So this is the first encounter that I had with this individual. Now what we're going to get is, Zo, your perspective on that same encounter, once she came home from work, and I believe she gave you a call or you communicated somehow, and so what was the communication interaction with her after she and I met?
ZOE - 03:16
My friend BP, her name is Bathuthukile Petronella Caluza, so we call her BP. She called me, she said, so we definitely have to meet, I have so much to tell you. Then I stopped by her house and she told me that she had met this guy from America and we were like amazed and we all said, wow, said he was looking for a bus to get him to University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban campus, and she says they went into the bus together because Darwin wanted to go and buy t-shirts from the varsity.
And my friend told me that they were going to meet the following morning for breakfast and we were so excited about this and we used to call him American, the American guy.
DARWIN - 04:19
Well, see, that's aspects of it that I did not know. You said, um American.
ZOE - 04:24
American.
DARWIN - 04:25
Okay, so I did not know anything about that. So yes, we did meet, if I'm not mistaken, I think it was the next day that I was heading back to the US because if I'm not mistaken, once we met up, I think later on we went directly to the airport.
I'm not 100% sure.
ZOE - 04:50
Yes, that's after breakfast.
DARWIN 04:52
Right, so after breakfast we head to the airport because I was flying back that next day, actually that day. So the day that I met her, I was flying back to the US the next day. So we hit it off very well.
You guys know my history that worked at the time. I was still employed with this airline so I got the opportunity to fly for free or close to it. So my thought was, oh my goodness, you know, my luck.
I meet her on my second to the last day. We get together on my last day, have a very good connection and now I'm getting on the flight and going back home. So, but in my head I'm like, I'm coming back.
The interaction was so good, you know, I could see and feel that there was a connection. So I'm like, okay, I'm coming back and I think I did come back. I don't know if it was six months or a year later.
ZOE - 05:54
I think it was six months later that you returned.
DARWIN - 05:57
Once I returned, then it was on. So, um, tell me what was, uh, again, from your perspective, what was the interaction like? So let me just say I came back and if, uh, like I said, I can't remember because it was such a long time ago.
I don't know if it was a week that I stayed or 10 days, but I did come back and we spent the entire time together. So, yes, so fill in the gaps. What was, uh, your interaction with her after as I doubt, you know, the back then a cell phones were not as prevalent as it is now where you can talk and text with each other immediately.
So I'm assuming that once I returned back to the U S you guys got back together again, and, uh, she, um, gave you a full report.
ZOE - 06:57
Yeah, my friend and I were very excited about this relationship with Darwin and I remember her telling me that Darwin would be returning to South Africa and we were trying to brainstorm the ideas how we're going to welcome him.
Then we came up with the idea of getting a cake baked that is a routine welcome back to South Africa. And back then we used to communicate with Darwin via email. We didn't have computers but we used to go to the internet cafe at Devon workshop which is the food emporium, there was an internet cafe there, we'll go there, pay for two hours to sit on the computer and type out email to Darwin and we will tell him everything that has happened in that week because we'll go once a week on Saturday, we'll tell him everything that has been happening throughout the week, then he will reply to us, then we'll only find the reply the following Saturday, that's how it used to work.
ZOE - 08:07
Things were very slow back then we didn't have cell phones.
DARWIN - 08:12
You know, I can remember that even before we communicated via email, we communicated via snail mail. And I actually still have some of those letters, you know, Zoe was talking about how things did not move at the pace that they do now.
Before we started emailing each other, the communication lag was like three weeks or two weeks or something like that, because I would write a letter or whoever wrote the first letter, it would probably take about 10 days or so to get to the other party. And then maybe about 10 days, you know, you have to take time to digest the letter and then write a response. So that might have taken two or three days and then 10 days for the response to get to the original sender.
So it was like, you know, two and a half, three weeks in between. So I mean, that was like, like in the 1930s and 40s. So when we started communicating via email and the response time went down to a week, I was like, oh my God, that was like going from writing a letter to telephones back in the, you know, whatever era, you know, you know, we look at it now, we communicate, you Zoe and I, we communicate almost every day, it's damn near instantaneous.
And so I just think back of those days when first it was like two and a half, three weeks for correspondence back and forth and then cut down to a week. And then now if I send a WhatsApp message and I don't get a response back in 30 minutes, I'm like, what's wrong with Zoe?
But I have to realize that technology is not equal around the globe or I should say access to technology is not the same where and I have unlimited coverage and I have very bad sleep habits. So I'm up in the middle of the night.
If I get up to use the bathroom in the middle of the night, chances are I'll be up for about two hours before I can go back to sleep. So in that period of time, instead of just laying in the bed trying to fall asleep, I'll pick up my phone and see, you know, I got a message from someone somewhere or whatever.
And go back and forth until I get exhausted and go to sleep.
ZOE - 11:01
That's been said about technology even the email we didn't know anything about emailing we learned it from you we didn't know anything regarding to email all what we know was using the snail mail through the post office because remember it's one stage you had posted a globe to my friend and my friend calls me on the phone I was at work said it Darwin has posted something for me you must come and see what is it and she said it's a global incubator and I was so excited I wanted to see the global incubator because I had never seen or heard of such and I went to her house and only to find it was a globe the map of the world and later on in the month Darwin sent me the same thing through the post office as well and we kept that you as a souvenir we really really treasured our globes.
DARWIN - 12:11
Yeah, that was some fun times. So tell me about the, again, the interaction that you had with BP after we went to that, to the, to the safari.
ZOE - 12:28
Oh my friend came back and told me that they went to the safari and there were young girls that were performing and entertaining the tourists and so Darwin wanted to tip them with money and Darwin paid out notes and my friend got a show said no no no you cannot give them that much it's only coins that you have to give to them and even at the hotel when Darwin dawin checks out of the hotel he will leave R200 notes under the site lamp and my friend will take those notes and swap it with coins because she realized that Darwin is wasting too much money unnecessarily.
DARWIN - 13:19
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I learned the tipping technique in different countries. So I learned that the hard way. But speaking about that, I remember that in particular. And I remember the fact that, you know, we had a we had a really nice time on that.
Actually, every time that I came back and spent time with her. Now, this next one is an experience that I only recently heard about back in the, I guess it was still, you know, it's still in the late 90s, or maybe it was early 2000, probably late 90s.
When I had come out and I had scheduled an appointment with the realtor to take a look at some properties, I was looking towards the future and just wanted to get a baseline of the pricing of homes in the area.
So if I was to have the opportunity to purchase something, what would my money get? And we looked at some homes and the pricing was in a compared to American cost for a home in a very, very nice area, close to the beach.
I just remember it was something like 90 or $100,000, which anybody in the US knows you're in a nice neighborhood, a stone's throw step away from the beach. It's going to be eight, nine times that amount.
So I was just thoroughly amazed. Not only that, the home, even today, I don't understand how this works, but it was like the home came with maid services. I mean, it had maids quarters. And when we went to visit the maids in the house, all lined up and stood at attention. And it was just kind of overwhelming. As I said, here it is, you know, 25 years later, I still don't understand how that works. How do you buy a house and get maids with it? That I just can't wrap my mind around that.
But apparently there is a backstory that I knew nothing about until just recently. When I say just recently, I'm talking about weeks ago, I just heard this story. So tell that story. So…
ZOE - 15:45
Yes, we had this party and my friend was telling all our friends that she's gonna be moving to the suburbs and We even told her that you're going to change the dress code because now you're going to be living in the upmarket area And she was going to buy Puppy to head to behave like a white lady.
It was the excitement throughout the all group of friends That's just going to have the house in.
DARWIN - 16:20
I'm glad I was able to bring some excitement. I'm disappointed in myself that it didn't come to pass, and I don't know. It would seem as if that, since it did not come to pass after having this party and inviting people over and telling everybody that she's going to move to the suburbs, and then it not happening, could possibly have been kind of embarrassing.
So I apologize about that. And things didn't work out as I had planned, and I didn't realize the extent of the feeling that that future was going to come to fruition, so. Are there any other stories that, I know when you told me this story a couple of weeks ago, I was tempted to ask if there were more stories like this, and then I caught myself and I said, no, no, no, you know what, don't tell me.
Think about if there were other stories like this. So when you tell it, I would be truly surprised to hear the story, because I did not know about it. So were there any other stories that I did not know about?
ZOE - 17:39
There are lots of stories that I cannot recall like now, but yo, you were really the talk of the town. She always talked about you to everybody that she meets. She'll talk about Darwin and the future.
And even when she was in her sick bed, she'll be talking about how she's going to recuperate and plan a holiday to go to Cape Town with Darwin. But unfortunately, she didn't make it.
DARWIN -
Yes, we did talk about, you know, going outside of Durban. Up until that point, the furthest we had gone is when we went to the safari. Yeah, we did talk about going outside of South Africa to other places to visit and see.
She was, you know, fun to be around, fun, you know, person, personality. So, yeah, it's difficult sometimes to think about, you know, what could have been, but ended up not being. So, and based off of that, you know, once, but by the way, you know, I have not talked to our podcast listeners about these experiences.
As I was telling her son, Kwasi, that in the 27 episodes that I've done, I have not talked about South Africa at all because I was waiting for this experience to be able to interview you. So, they don't know anything about BP.
They don't know anything about what happened. So, I know it's a, it's, you know, kind of a tough thing to talk about. And even at this point, you know, so many years later, as I'm talking about it, I can feel the emotion.
ZOE - 19:37
Absolutely.
DARWIN - 19:40
So, what do you feel comfortable talking about what transpired? And if you don't feel comfortable or you don't want to, you know, that's fine.
ZOE - 19:53
hmm i cannot think of any other thing at this point.
DARWIN - 20:00
Mm, okay, okay. So I've gotten to know Zo through BP. And so let's talk a little bit about our interaction, our friendship over the past 20 plus years.
ZOE - 20:24
I always think and say that it was a blessing that Darwin had met. BP was a good friend of mine. She was more than a friend. She was like a sister. When I cry, she would cry. When I laugh, she would laugh.
That's the kind of friendship that we had. We'd say everything. She knew all my problems and my happiness and likewise with her. She will tell me that she's happy with Darwin and she was planning to have a future with Darwin.
She was a very outspoken and a friendly young lady. It said that she had to depart at the early age. And even her mom always said that if she had lived much longer, her mom wouldn't be where she is now because she's the one that had bought a house for her mother.
They used to reside in a little one room house in a squatter camp. She used to work at the post office, but she managed to buy her mom a house where her mom stays even now. And it's unfortunate that she didn't live to improve most of the things and left her son behind.
But all in all, having Darwin met BP, I wouldn't have known Darwin. Who is up until this time, he is still a good friend of mine. And if I have a problem, if I tell Darwin just randomly what's going through in my life, he will just come out and assist me. He's assisted me in so many instances, almost like bailing me out of problems. And if I tell people, they just even think that maybe we're dating or something. And I tell them, no, that's a brother of mine.
That's the kind of relationship that Darwin and I have.
DARWIN - 22:44
Yes and now it's it's going on what you know it's funny yesterday when Kwazi Quazi and I were out and we got to talking about how long that I've known you and he was like oh yeah I remember I was like this this big you know we're still in primary school.
ZOE - 23:03
That's it, thank you.
DARWIN - 23:06
Yeah, and now, how old are you now, Kwasi? Yeah, he had to think about it. And you know what, I didn't, well, I don't really think that much of it, but we, I was talking with your friend yesterday and asked how old he thought I was.
And he said something ridiculous, like, what did you say? Like 30 -something, 40 -something, 40 -something.
ZOE - 23:38
And who said that Kwasi or Kwasi's friend?
DARWIN - 23:42
No actually Kwasi's friend came closer because I think she said 47 so I think Kwasi's remembering incorrectly because she said like 47 and I think he said like 39 because he didn't hear her and she said 40 no no no no sorry sorry no you may be right no I'm sorry she said 52 and I said higher and then Kwasi said 47 so you're right Kwasi said 47 I was like okay Kwasi obviously you're not listening because because she said 52 and I said higher and then he comes back with 47 but you'd probably had like what three four beers bite in so
ZOE - 24:27
That's how that explains it.
DARWIN - 24:31
Explains it right so yeah I don't know if you did you hear how old I said I was so yeah I'm 59 and later this year I'll be 60 so you know I've had a good life I've been able to travel to 25 countries and to be quite honest with you I could have easily have traveled to a hundred countries because how many times have I been to South Africa.
ZOE - 25:05
And I wish you had been collecting your tickets because this would have been maybe a full job by now.
DARWIN - 25:14
Yeah, yeah, because I've been to South Africa now I would I stopped counting but I would probably say 15 times and I've and it's not even the country that I've been to the most I've been to Brazil about 30 times I've been to Japan about 10 or 12 times so if all of those countries I would have been to only one time and then went somewhere else.
I would probably be at somewhere near a hundred countries visited so I've had a good life lots of experiences and I'm not saying that like I think it's going to come to an end plan on continuing to do that and in the process now of looking at countries that would interest me financially and otherwise to retire in.
I think that I've resigned myself to the fact that I probably won't stay in one country for the entirety of retirement, but let's say two years in this country in a four years in that country something like that just to get a flavor because I've had the opportunity to go to so many different countries and there's a lot of really really nice places and so yeah if I can do that and you know it's always been a dream of mine.
To live outside the US for a period of time and I was hoping that I would be able to do that before retirement but time flies and I'm getting closer and closer to that I'm looking to be retired fully within two two and a half years so I'm actually starting the process of doing an investigation I don't have it on this computer, but I have a spreadsheet.
Where I list three countries from all of the different regions of the world so for Africa I do have South Africa on the list I have. What's the one just notice it's in bad way. Just north of South Africa.
ZOE - 27:34
Or Namibia, can't remember.
DARWIN - 27:36
Namibia is to the west, it's the northwest. I think it's Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe
ZOE - 27:45
Yeah, you did mention Zimbabwe.
DARWIN - 27:48
That's one, and then I have Morocco, which I probably shouldn't mention in South Africa because it seems like a lot of Africans don't like the North African countries because they think that they're Arab and not African.
But I do have Morocco on the list. Then I have places a lot closer to the US like Mexico and Panama, places like that. So I'm in the process, and so what I do is I collect all of the information on ease of getting a visa, how long the visa stay is allowed, and cost of living, of course, safety, those types of things, healthcare, and compile it all together and then go through it and I'll start weaning them down.
And as I said, there's so many different places. I don't wanna knock one place off the list and just look at one place. So like I said, it may be two years in one place, year to another place or anything like that.
So if I were looking at South Africa and Durban seems to be my home away from home, what areas do you recommend?
ZOE - 28:58
I like them at the top of the list, it's Cape Town.
DARWIN - 29:01
-No, I mean within Durban, what areas?
ZOE - 29:05
Durban which will be Umsanga Hillcrest.
DARWIN - 29:09
Umlanga.
ZOE - 29:11
Yes. And Hillcrest. And Hillcrest? Yes. Those are the…
DARWIN - 29:01
What about safest places? What about Morningside?
ZOE - 29:22
No, no, no, no, it's morning side, maybe Kloof. What about?
DARWIN - 29:29
How do you is it Berea Berea is that how you say it yes but that's not a good spot no oh so I only I only know about the trifling places I don't know the good places okay okay all right but within South Africa you would recommend Cape Town area as number one.
ZOE - 29:52
Yeah, what I like about Cape Town, it is the cleanest city so far.
DARWIN - 29:58
Yeah and I've been to Cape Town a couple times. Actually the first time I went to Cape Town was probably in the late 90s, but more recently I went to Cape Town twice last year. And yeah, yeah, I really like it.
I really like it. And then I have a former coworker who Cape Town is her home away from home. She goes there quite a bit. So, you know, anytime I go there, I talk with her to get the latest on where to go and different things going on.
So, okay. So is there anything else? Yeah.
ZOE - 30:35
If you would consider Darwin, it would be ideal and I would encourage you to make time, maybe the next time you visit South Africa, somebody that can get you to view the properties in Omsanga areas in Bali and see if you can compare it with the properties back home in the US.
DARWIN - 31:04
So speaking about that, the challenge for a foreigner to buy something is high. I should say the entry point is high for a foreigner to buy. So unless I was looking to do some sort of business where I'm looking at investment properties, unless that is the goal, more than likely with retirement, it would be renting.
So would you still recommend those areas for rental properties as well?
ZOE - 31:41
Absolutely. Okay. And the rental in those areas is a bit high.
DARWIN - 31:47
So what is high and the reason I asked is because remember a couple weeks ago I asked you if I was to rent something and I used dollars I don't know if you quickly converted it but if I said
ZOE - 32:03
I can't quickly convert it.
DARWIN - 32:05
Okay Kwazi, can you put a conversion website on your phone and see what's the conversion from USD to ZAR and put in 600 USD. What does that convert to in Rand?
ZOE - 32:23
Because, sorry, remember when I was taking you to the airport and we got lost, I took the back route. Yes. And we drove, there are apartments that are behind a Sibaya casino. Remember, once I took you to Sibaya. I recently found out that the apartment, the rental, is 46 ,000 rents per month. This is a huge amount of money from where I stand.
DARWIN - 32:51
Let me see, it's a 46,000 Rand
Z - 32:55
in my fears.
DARWIN - 32:57
I forgot, let's see, I might be able to get it, Kwasi, let's see. And you said those places were 46 ,000, so that's even a lot by U .S. standards.
ZOE - 33:10
Yeah it's quite expensive but i don't know what comes with the apartment.
DARWIN - 33:18
So that's $2,436 per month. It's a 46,000 grand per month. So that's almost $2 ,500 per month. That's a lot.
ZOE - 33:31
which is a lot.
DARWIN - 33:34
Yeah, I wouldn't be able to afford that. That's more than my current mortgage. But, I mean, it's probably a very ritzy, expensive area.
ZOE - 33:55
Yeah and the good thing about that is the lock up and go you'll know that if you fly back home your place will be safe safely kept
DARWIN - 34:10
Yeah, I would be looking for something in the 12 ,000 rand per month range.
ZOE
Hmm, maybe this area can find something like that. Yes.
DARWIN - 34:26
So okay, well I think that we will wrap it up there and as I said, my first interview podcast so I'm glad you were able to join me and you were able to enlighten me with tales from the other side of point of view.
So I really appreciate that and well we'll just continue to travel and come back and create more experiences.
ZOE - 34:59
Correct. All right. All right.
DARWIN - 35:01
Well, thank you, and here we'll be signing off from Durban, South Africa.